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	<title>Comments for Gobán Saor</title>
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	<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com</link>
	<description>A country datasmith.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:24:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Death of the Star Schema? by gobansaor</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2012/01/19/death-of-the-star-schema/#comment-8200</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gobansaor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=2336#comment-8200</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bala, 

&quot;But when a data mart is designed when people have not understood the source data, then it is alarming &quot; yes indeed, but equally so when a &quot;report&quot; (be that PowerPivot or whatever) is generated by people who do not understand the data, this too is alarming. 

As per my post, even when data mart designers know the source data, the restricted view exposed by their data marts are often &quot;alarming&quot; as well, either due to lack of business knowledge or designing against a view of the business that is no longer relevant. 

And, even if the data mart designers get everything right  on the night, the business, and the environment it operates in, continues to change; the models age and eventually fail. 

All have costs; ETL being usually the most significant, but bad business decisions made by bad analysis or bad  data can be much more expensive. Data prep, be that simply in the mind of the data analyst, or codified in an ETL process, is the constant; which one will be needed is dependant on the circumstances. 

Star-schemas are simply a choice of model (a logical CDM, as per Inmon, is another option) generated as a result of an ETL process. For many current BI tools they&#039;re not optional, you most provide a star-schema (or construct an OLAP hypercube) but tools such as PowerPivot (and the likes of Business Objects in the past) do not require one. The ETL process is where the cost lies, if you can do without it you&#039;ll save up-front money, but only if your target data/business analysts are comfortable working with the source raw data. 

Tom ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bala, </p>
<p>&#8220;But when a data mart is designed when people have not understood the source data, then it is alarming &#8221; yes indeed, but equally so when a &#8220;report&#8221; (be that PowerPivot or whatever) is generated by people who do not understand the data, this too is alarming. </p>
<p>As per my post, even when data mart designers know the source data, the restricted view exposed by their data marts are often &#8220;alarming&#8221; as well, either due to lack of business knowledge or designing against a view of the business that is no longer relevant. </p>
<p>And, even if the data mart designers get everything right  on the night, the business, and the environment it operates in, continues to change; the models age and eventually fail. </p>
<p>All have costs; ETL being usually the most significant, but bad business decisions made by bad analysis or bad  data can be much more expensive. Data prep, be that simply in the mind of the data analyst, or codified in an ETL process, is the constant; which one will be needed is dependant on the circumstances. </p>
<p>Star-schemas are simply a choice of model (a logical CDM, as per Inmon, is another option) generated as a result of an ETL process. For many current BI tools they&#8217;re not optional, you most provide a star-schema (or construct an OLAP hypercube) but tools such as PowerPivot (and the likes of Business Objects in the past) do not require one. The ETL process is where the cost lies, if you can do without it you&#8217;ll save up-front money, but only if your target data/business analysts are comfortable working with the source raw data. </p>
<p>Tom</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death of the Star Schema? by Bala</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2012/01/19/death-of-the-star-schema/#comment-8199</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bala]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=2336#comment-8199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom,
I agree that people need to understand the source data model.  When people understand the source data model, the merging of data model becomes little bit easier and saves a lot of ETL process.   But when a data mart is designed when people have not understood the source data, then it is alarming.  Because of this only, lot of data mart projects enter into problems.    If we reduce the ETL process, it saves time, effort , cost and erroneous data.  Moreover, verification of data can be reduced post migration and customer can be confident about the data.  Maintaining of single version of truth becomes easier.  In today&#039;s world, were data need to be moved to dwh environment very frequently say for every hour, then it adds more bottle neck to the ETL process and the star schema.  When the star schema data grows out of bound, then everything becomes a headache.  Always there will be trade off between etl process and post etl process (like inserting/updating large chunk of data and selecting the query.  We need to compromise for quick insert/update or quick queries ).  Maintenance of dwh db also a little costly affair.  So will it not be better to avoid these process instead of doing some thing fancy?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom,<br />
I agree that people need to understand the source data model.  When people understand the source data model, the merging of data model becomes little bit easier and saves a lot of ETL process.   But when a data mart is designed when people have not understood the source data, then it is alarming.  Because of this only, lot of data mart projects enter into problems.    If we reduce the ETL process, it saves time, effort , cost and erroneous data.  Moreover, verification of data can be reduced post migration and customer can be confident about the data.  Maintaining of single version of truth becomes easier.  In today&#8217;s world, were data need to be moved to dwh environment very frequently say for every hour, then it adds more bottle neck to the ETL process and the star schema.  When the star schema data grows out of bound, then everything becomes a headache.  Always there will be trade off between etl process and post etl process (like inserting/updating large chunk of data and selecting the query.  We need to compromise for quick insert/update or quick queries ).  Maintenance of dwh db also a little costly affair.  So will it not be better to avoid these process instead of doing some thing fancy?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death of the Star Schema? by Tom Gleeson</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2012/01/19/death-of-the-star-schema/#comment-8195</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Gleeson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=2336#comment-8195</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If standard reports provided all the decision support information that businesses required we would never have had a  BI industry (or tools like Excel/PowerPivot); they don&#039;t, and never will. 

But yes, everything does depend on the source system data schema, a bespoke, data-design-close-to-the-business-view dataset will generally be easier to ad-hoc report on, either by SQL or DAX. However, most businesses depend on packaged software for their core operations, and being packages they tend to be highly configurable (mainly through config holding many-to-many relationships); such schemas can be very difficult to phrase reports against. Hence, the likes of SAP offering starter-pack star-schemas as part of their reporting tool set. 

Likewise, merging datasets from multiple internal/external systems (some may not even be relational, but API provided or using noSQL datastores) can often require the development of a new data model, again, in such situations a dimensional model may best suit. And even if not, potentially costly ETL will still be part of the equation. 

When OLTP data models are understood inside out, when staff have the necessary SQL or programming skills ,and have the time and the budgets, to quickly generate ad-hoc reports (and package them into &quot;pretty artefacts&quot;), then, no extra data models (or BI tools) are required. In such situations, building a star-schema may indeed be largely pointless. 

But very few of the world&#039;s businesses are in that exact position. Tools like PowerPivot/DAX are not silver bullets, they are however, still bullets, which when used in the way best suited for a particular situation (some ETL-free, some heavily supported by ETL processes), are a godsend for many. 

Tom ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If standard reports provided all the decision support information that businesses required we would never have had a  BI industry (or tools like Excel/PowerPivot); they don&#8217;t, and never will. </p>
<p>But yes, everything does depend on the source system data schema, a bespoke, data-design-close-to-the-business-view dataset will generally be easier to ad-hoc report on, either by SQL or DAX. However, most businesses depend on packaged software for their core operations, and being packages they tend to be highly configurable (mainly through config holding many-to-many relationships); such schemas can be very difficult to phrase reports against. Hence, the likes of SAP offering starter-pack star-schemas as part of their reporting tool set. </p>
<p>Likewise, merging datasets from multiple internal/external systems (some may not even be relational, but API provided or using noSQL datastores) can often require the development of a new data model, again, in such situations a dimensional model may best suit. And even if not, potentially costly ETL will still be part of the equation. </p>
<p>When OLTP data models are understood inside out, when staff have the necessary SQL or programming skills ,and have the time and the budgets, to quickly generate ad-hoc reports (and package them into &#8220;pretty artefacts&#8221;), then, no extra data models (or BI tools) are required. In such situations, building a star-schema may indeed be largely pointless. </p>
<p>But very few of the world&#8217;s businesses are in that exact position. Tools like PowerPivot/DAX are not silver bullets, they are however, still bullets, which when used in the way best suited for a particular situation (some ETL-free, some heavily supported by ETL processes), are a godsend for many. </p>
<p>Tom</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death of the Star Schema? by Bala</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2012/01/19/death-of-the-star-schema/#comment-8193</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bala]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=2336#comment-8193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Again, the source system itself will be having lot of built in reports.  Moreover, everything depends on the design of source system.  Still for reporting purpose, the design could be optimized rather lot of work on star schema and maintain it with lots of investment.  Is it really worth deal?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, the source system itself will be having lot of built in reports.  Moreover, everything depends on the design of source system.  Still for reporting purpose, the design could be optimized rather lot of work on star schema and maintain it with lots of investment.  Is it really worth deal?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death of the Star Schema? by gobansaor</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2012/01/19/death-of-the-star-schema/#comment-8191</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gobansaor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=2336#comment-8191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well yes Bala, I, and my end users, have benefited from dimensional models in the past. Admittedly if I&#039;d had the power of DAX in the past many of those models would not have been built, saving a significant amount of money. But many, even a majority, would still have benefited from a dimensional approach. Mainly this was due to the nature of the source systems; complex ERP, demand planning &amp; CRM schemas, consisting of long chains of configurable many-to-many relationships, which DAX (or civilian or generated SQL) would choke on. In such cases, complex ETL was already on the cards, so picking a dimensional model,rather than a CDM - logical corporate data model - made sense (from both a complexity and cost-benefit pov).

Tom]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well yes Bala, I, and my end users, have benefited from dimensional models in the past. Admittedly if I&#8217;d had the power of DAX in the past many of those models would not have been built, saving a significant amount of money. But many, even a majority, would still have benefited from a dimensional approach. Mainly this was due to the nature of the source systems; complex ERP, demand planning &amp; CRM schemas, consisting of long chains of configurable many-to-many relationships, which DAX (or civilian or generated SQL) would choke on. In such cases, complex ETL was already on the cards, so picking a dimensional model,rather than a CDM &#8211; logical corporate data model &#8211; made sense (from both a complexity and cost-benefit pov).</p>
<p>Tom</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death of the Star Schema? by Bala</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2012/01/19/death-of-the-star-schema/#comment-8187</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bala]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 13:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=2336#comment-8187</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why do you actually require a star schema?  Is it really benefits in the longer run.  It only add too much of costs and at time creates problems with the wrong data.  Moreover, achieving a near real time data version is also a huge problem.  There are ways other than star schema, where we can save cost and get a bigger benefit in the longer run.  Can any body provide evidence that they have benefited with Star schema compared to other models in the longer run and with saving lot of costs?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you actually require a star schema?  Is it really benefits in the longer run.  It only add too much of costs and at time creates problems with the wrong data.  Moreover, achieving a near real time data version is also a huge problem.  There are ways other than star schema, where we can save cost and get a bigger benefit in the longer run.  Can any body provide evidence that they have benefited with Star schema compared to other models in the longer run and with saving lot of costs?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death of the Star Schema? by gobansaor</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2012/01/19/death-of-the-star-schema/#comment-8126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gobansaor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=2336#comment-8126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Paul

Yes, agree with both points. 

But there&#039;s also a significant number of users (and business developers) who understand (or are capable of understanding) OLTP schemas and there are many who today report successfully against such schemas using SQL or SQL generating tools such as Business Objects.

DAX (via the underlying relationship logic) makes the production of sophisticated reports against such models much easier than is the case with SQL. So for these situations a hypercube view of the data can be generated without strict star-schema modelling.

But my (somewhat tongue in cheek) headline was not so much directed at the general use or benefits of dimensional modelling, but its traditional use as the end-product of centralised modelled data warehouses.

Tom]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Paul</p>
<p>Yes, agree with both points. </p>
<p>But there&#8217;s also a significant number of users (and business developers) who understand (or are capable of understanding) OLTP schemas and there are many who today report successfully against such schemas using SQL or SQL generating tools such as Business Objects.</p>
<p>DAX (via the underlying relationship logic) makes the production of sophisticated reports against such models much easier than is the case with SQL. So for these situations a hypercube view of the data can be generated without strict star-schema modelling.</p>
<p>But my (somewhat tongue in cheek) headline was not so much directed at the general use or benefits of dimensional modelling, but its traditional use as the end-product of centralised modelled data warehouses.</p>
<p>Tom</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death of the Star Schema? by Paul te Braak</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2012/01/19/death-of-the-star-schema/#comment-8125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul te Braak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=2336#comment-8125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From the users (or business developers) perspective, the concepts of the star schema are inherent in how they (we) think about data.  For example a subject area with things we know about (whether we call them attributes, fields, columns…).  If anything, tabular makes this easier to model due to the underlying relationship functionality, so even if the data is not loaded as a star, it will be presented as one.  So the schema will gain ground.

For me, powerpivot breaks ground for the end user because it removes reliance on the modelled data warehouse by providing the ability to combine large information from several sources (something which IT as the custodians of the data warehouse are notoriously slow and expensive for).  This could potentially see a changing of the ‘information guard’ as the warehouse lager of information needs rather than the leader.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the users (or business developers) perspective, the concepts of the star schema are inherent in how they (we) think about data.  For example a subject area with things we know about (whether we call them attributes, fields, columns…).  If anything, tabular makes this easier to model due to the underlying relationship functionality, so even if the data is not loaded as a star, it will be presented as one.  So the schema will gain ground.</p>
<p>For me, powerpivot breaks ground for the end user because it removes reliance on the modelled data warehouse by providing the ability to combine large information from several sources (something which IT as the custodians of the data warehouse are notoriously slow and expensive for).  This could potentially see a changing of the ‘information guard’ as the warehouse lager of information needs rather than the leader.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Star Schemas &#8211; to boldly go where no Excel spreadsheet has gone before by Death of the Star Schema? &#124; Gobán Saor</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2010/07/09/star-schemas-to-boldly-go-where-no-excel-spreadsheet-has-gone-before/#comment-8124</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Death of the Star Schema? &#124; Gobán Saor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=1038#comment-8124</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] from VBA - The CodeDeath of the Star Schema?HAMMERing away at Automated PowerPivot RefreshminimeStar Schemas - to boldly go where no Excel spreadsheet has gone before      Theme: Coraline by Automattic. Blog at WordPress.com.      /*  */    var _qevents = _qevents [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from VBA &#8211; The CodeDeath of the Star Schema?HAMMERing away at Automated PowerPivot RefreshminimeStar Schemas &#8211; to boldly go where no Excel spreadsheet has gone before      Theme: Coraline by Automattic. Blog at WordPress.com.      /*  */    var _qevents = _qevents [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death of the Star Schema? by gobansaor</title>
		<link>http://blog.gobansaor.com/2012/01/19/death-of-the-star-schema/#comment-8123</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gobansaor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gobansaor.com/?p=2336#comment-8123</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Rob, Yes, you&#039;re right, more people will see the benefit of a star like models, but the difference from the past will be their (the models&#039;) just-in-time, problem-specific nature. Too much money and good-will was wasted in the past trying to second-guess the future needs of businesses. Give your datasmiths the data (cleansed and simplified if need be) and also make sure they understand its meaning and potential, and let &#039;em loose ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rob, Yes, you&#8217;re right, more people will see the benefit of a star like models, but the difference from the past will be their (the models&#8217;) just-in-time, problem-specific nature. Too much money and good-will was wasted in the past trying to second-guess the future needs of businesses. Give your datasmiths the data (cleansed and simplified if need be) and also make sure they understand its meaning and potential, and let &#8216;em loose &#8230;</p>
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